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Ed's Plumbing & Sewer

Ed's Plumbing & Sewer

Plumbing Service
Madison WI

Description


Water Heater, Sewer Cleaning, Sump Pump, Remodeling, In Business for Over 50 Years, Electrical, Remodeling, Kitchen & Bath, Basement, Plumbing. Services: Remodeling, Sewer Cleaning and Repair, Drain Cleaning, Re-piping, Plumbing, Low Water Pressure Restored, Pipe Leak Repair, Sump Pumps, Gas Lines Installed, Garbage Disposal, Water Heaters, Tankless Heaters, Ejector Pumps, Power Rodding, Senior Discounts, Sewer Video Inspections. Brands: Rheem, Kohler, American Standard, MOEN, Gerber.

HISTORY


Established in 1967.
Ed's Plumbing & Sewer, Inc., located in Darien, IL, is the leading plumbing and sewer repair and maintenance company serving Homer Glen, Elmhurst, Burr Ridge and surrounding areas since 1967. We off sewer cleaning and repair, pipe leaks, gas line installation, drain cleaning and much more. In business for over 50 years and available 24/7, for all of your plumbing and sewer needs, call Ed's Plumbing and Sewer, Inc. in Darien today! Certifications: Licensed, Bonded & Insured

ABOUT BUSINESS OWNER


Ed is the owner of Ed's Plumbing & Sewer.

SERVICES


Reviews


Robert P.
Robert P.
05/10/2017 12:00:00 SA
If this guy took my mom for 15k I'd pay him a special visit.

Update: Ed has been removed from our Parish bulletin. Bye Ed.

Dianna M.
Dianna M.
12/27/2022
Our water wasn't hot. My husband was able to get the igniter on the water heater to give us one more tank of hot water on Saturday(Christmas Eve). We called Ed's plumbing on recommendation from Nextdoor. Diane was through in explaining about the $125 assessment fee would be deducted from bill if we have them do the work. John was great. He was professional and thorough. He installed our new Rheem water heater and was cleaned up within 3 hours of his arrival. We really appreciated the work being done efficiently and timely. Thanks John, Diane and Ed's plumbing.

Sandy P.
Sandy P.
11/15/2014
Thief charges u twice as much as any other plumber would tries to get your attention by putting ads in church bulletins then rips you off saying that he is giving you a discount does he think people are stupid

Joe B.
Joe B.
11/21/2014
No stars.

Called Ed's on Saturday, 11/30 to repair a minor leak in the kitchen sink trap. Was told they have an $85 dispatch fee that would be credited toward work performed. Plumber arrived and spent approximately 1/2 hour assessing the problem and replacing a gasket, sealant and pipe nut. Total charge for the trip and 15 minutes of work - $170!

Their contract states 90 warranty, but also notes Due to the age/condition of the existing pipes, we cannot be responsible for leaks. That's a warranty? Note that these pipes were replaced five years ago when we remodeled the kitchen.

Got Ed's listing from our parish bulletin. Apparently, he wants people to think highly of his integrity because he advertises in the church bulletin.

I'll never call Ed's again. Getting screwed once is enough.

Joe S.
Joe S.
06/11/2010 12:00:00 SA
Related to Doug's plumbing also working out of the same street address.  

DO NOT  trust these guys.  They seem nice, but they are total scam artists who take advantage of people not familiar with the plumbing trade!  

Hire someone else who will work honestly for a dollar instead of ripping off unknowing people!

christine s.
christine s.
7/26/2015
BIGGEST CON ARTIST EVER !  BEWARE TO EVERYONE ,  ESPECIALLY THE ELDERLY !!!!  Everyone is not wrong. He advertises in church bulletins to gain trust and to sound like a religious and ethical person. He will not give an hourly rate when I asked for one. His bill shows no labor charges. It show no itemization for anything they do for that matter. He charges $85 for dispatch which was to be deducted which is not shown. There is a 10% (church discount...what a joke) discount noted which brings the total he charged my 88 year old father to $ 988.97 .  What did he charge that amount for you ask? To install an already purchased ready to install 60 kitchen sink and connect the pipes. The thief only provided a pvc pipe slip nuts, and the drain basket. This company has no morals or ethics. He had some paper with Lisa Madigan on it about Homeowners Beware...Fraud.....Protect Yourself which he had my father sign.  Even with that, he tries to gain trust from the elderly that he cares that nothing bad happens to people when it is he who is stabbing them in the back. I am taking this to every consumer agency there is.   Has anyone ever seen such bullshit on a receipt as Carefully set countertop on base cabinet  and Place protective tarps in work area  Had the same added as other reviewer about Their contract states 90 warranty, but also notes Due to the age/condition of the existing pipes, we cannot be responsible for leaks.  If you want to be taken advantage of, this is the company for you.  SHAME ON YOU EDS PLUMBING...SHAME ON YOU!!!!!!

Khandro C.
Khandro C.
7/27/2011
Negative stars. Avoid at all costs! Called Ed's Plumbing and Sewer, Inc. I was desperate for a plumber because I was leaving town, and the first two recos from friends who I called could not come because of personal reasons. I didn't want to leave my family with a backed up kitchen sink, but calling Ed's was a BIG mistake. I should have checked Yelp first, because the other review here is absolutely correct. These guys are liars and theives who take advantage of people. It would be better to live without a kitchen sink for awhile until you can get a decent plumber in than to call these guys.

They charged me $456 to clear a blockage that they didn't clear. With the sink still backing up, I called them back in. While routing our pipes, their guy broke a pipe deep in. Now I have a broken pipe and a hole in my wall, and I can't use my kitchen sink. They said they would have to charge me to fix the pipe they broke!

They refuse to take responsibility and are even blaming me, trying to say I am taking advantage of them! They are saying we had a pre-existing condition, and even accused me of knowing about it! Ed has insulted me, hung up on me, and tried to give me armchair psychoanalysis, actually saying that I am dishonest because I am looking for dishonesty in him!  He called himself a Christian and he called me a very sick person.

Avoid Ed's!

Matthew G.
Matthew G.
1/18/2021
Called early today and was promised that one of their team would do their best between 10 am and 2 pm. They arrived about 12:30 and were done in an hour. They identified the blockage as most likely tree roots about 20-25 feet in front of the house. The rodder cleared the blockage and they wet 75 feet. Fast efficient service, explained everything before they started. Good price and all cleaned up, no mess in my crawl space.  Everyone wore masks. Covid-19 safe.

bhappy t.
bhappy t.
7/13/2020
This company took advantage of my elderly parents. This company charges $125 for a courtesy call, a charge they were vague about, then quotes an insanely high price for the work. You're out the $125 if you don't hire them. In reality, this company is charging money to do estimates. Do not use any company that does not give free estimates. This is how this company rips off consumers.

Robert U.
Robert U.
10/30/2013
After seeing an ad in our church bulletin (St. Andrew the Apostle in Romeoville) I decided to call Ed's Plumbing and Sewer thinking he was a parishioner. In order to come out and give me a price I was told there was an $85 charge which would be applied to the bill if they did the work. They scheduled an appointment for the next day and arrived within their scheduled time.
I showed the technician what needed to be done, remove the old faucet from the lavatory and replace it with a new one I had purchased at Menards. He said OK and went to his price book to get me the price $488.80. I told him I thought that was high but didn't want to throw $85.00 away for nothing, so he said I would get a 10% discount 5% parishioner and 5% senior citizen. He completed the work in about an hour and 15 minutes and did a good job.
I checked with two other plumbers and got price quotes of $175.00 from both for the same job. This operation is strictly a rip off. I will tell our pastor they shouldn't accept advertising from them and am calling the advertising department of the bulletin publisher to complain as well.
If I could give them zero stars I would, but please be advised and avoid them at all costs!

William I.
William I.
10/19/2015
Total scam. Like others, I found this ad in my parish's newsletter and assumed that this outfit had been vetted out and were reputable. I was looking for someone to rough in a basement bathroom.
Jeff, who evidently only does the initial picture taking, came over and requested the $85 bucks upfront. Ok, sure. From there he comes in to my basement takes some photos while his phone rings off the hook and says I will have a quote in a few days.
The weekend passed and sure enough I get a call from John? On Monday asking me if I had a pencil to write down my info. If I'm paying for a quote I'm expecting a formal proposal so this was my first sign. He proceeded to go through all the work he was going to do as then hit me with a $7k quote. $7000!?!? The other 2 quote I've received have been less that $4k
Needless to say, I told him this was way high and he said ok thanks, bye completely unphased.
I am waiting on my formal quote, but in hindsight would not have invited these people into my home and will be checking my basement to see if anything is missing. Additionally, I intend to advise my parish to remove this ad and encourage anyone reading this ad to do the same. Stay away from these people. Total scam.

R G.
R G.
7/20/2020
This company took advantage of my elderly mother!  
I hope you read this this before you call!
The sad thing is a lot of elders won't use the internet to check on repair companies.  
$500 to install a garage disposal!
Run away from this place!!!!

Gerald P.
Gerald P.
12/22/2016
Like many other comments my wife found their add in the church bulletin. They may advertise in the bulletin but the religion they practice is SCREW the customer. After the 10% discount (never did see the credit for the $85.00 dispatch fee as stated on the bill), they charged $475.65 for an hour spent to rod out a drain line for the laundry room. I also told Jonathan about a slow running kitchen sink. He assured me that his work also took care of that problem because it drained into the same line. A few weeks later I called about the kitchen sink being worse. Guess what? They wanted to charge me again. I also asked to see his plumbing license but he refused. This company thrives on cheating the elderly.

Kent D.
Kent D.
02/03/2016 12:00:00 SA
These guys are crooks!  Like several other reviewers, I found this company in our parish bulletin, therefore I thought they'd be reputable.  WRONG!!  They charge $85 just to come out which is then applied to the total cost of repairs if you have them do the work.  The problem is, their prices are way too high!  You then have the choice of losing your $85 or paying their high price.  I paid my $85 and asked the person to leave.  DON'T EVER USE THIS COMPANY UNLESS YOU WANT RIPPED OFF!!

Jody D.
Jody D.
1/30/2019
We've been customers of Ed's plumbing for over 15 years. They have always prompt, courteous and solved our problems in an efficient economical way. We look forward to using them again.

William Z.
William Z.
10/17/2018
Is zero stars a possibility? Just got off the phone with some older lady. They don't do estimates over the phone and wasn't interested in hearing what my problem was. They charge a $125 fee to come out and if they do the work they will apply the fee to their bill which have NO idea what the price will be as they aren't interested in discussing anything over the phone. Yes, it is very likely that the lady doesn't know anything about plumbing and just answers the phone. EVERY other person I called could give me a price over the phone with no problems. My suggestion is to move on to someone else. By the way my problem was a blocked toilet drain, where I have already removed the toilet and tried a hand held rodder, and determined that the blockage is only about 2' from the drain. I need a quick power ridding. But again none of this was explained to the lady. This company is a joke and I'm not surprised that they have 16 reviews on yelp with only one star.

Gary S.
Gary S.
03/07/2015 12:00:00 SA
Please do yourself a favor and STAY AWAY from this company.  They will charge you $85 to inform you that it will cost you $500 plus to fix a leaky toilet!  No Thanks!

Austin P.
Austin P.
8/22/2018
We also found their name in the church bulletin, we had a leaky toilet.

They charged $125 to come out, and quoted $500 to fix it.

Obviously the guy never even examined the toilet because a reputable plumber we contacted for a second opinion took one look behind the tank, found the leak caused by a failed tank bolt seal, removed the tank, cleaned the sealing surfaces, and replaced the seals and bolts for $100.

We will be asking for a refund of the visit charge and if not refunded, pursuing further action against these crooks.

Monique O.
Monique O.
11/09/2018 12:00:00 SA
He did work at my mom's house and completely took advantage of her. I wish my mom would have told me who she was using before hiring this crook. He did 1 hour of work, basically put two copper valves on a pipe and charged almost 500 dollars. He will be reported to the church for what he does to others and he will also be reported to the better business bureau. This man can't continue getting away with this. He must be stopped. Don't ever use this man for his services. It really is a shame that he would advertise his name in church bulletins and then do work as the devil, taking advantage of others, being deceitful, etc. Eventually he will get his but I certainly hope he doesn't hurt too many others in the process before he gets shut down.

Mitchelle H.
Mitchelle H.
08/04/2015 12:00:00 SA
My kitchen sink/disposal was clogged so I asked my husbands office for a plumber contact - I got Ed's Plumbing and Sewer.  I called and talked to Ed, explained my problem and he said he would see if he could get someone out today that he might have to borrow someone from his dads crew.  Someone was here w/in 2 hours and I was informed there would be a service call fee of $85 that would be deducted from any work - fine with me.  
Jeff arrived and reviewed the situation and informed me that he would have to roto (not exactly sure of the word he used-but ran a pipe through the pipes) and the cost would be $498 - WHAT?? i said, that seems very expensive, let me call my husband (who is much more familiar w/these prices than me).  Called my husband and gave him the cost and he said it sounded fine and go ahead to which I said that it sounded extremely high or am I just that out of touch - he thought I was out of touch.  So I signed the paperwork and had him do the work. After he left I talked to my husband who said the $98 was a good price!!  So, not only do I feel totally embarrassed, I feel totally taken advantage of!!  I WILL NEVER USE THESE GUYS AGAIN and I WILL SPREAD THE WORD!  I don't mind paying for services but i absolutely mind being taken advantage of!  This ones on me but, NEVER AGAIN!!

Amy W.
Amy W.
08/06/2020 12:00:00 SA
After 20 years, it was time to update our tankless water heater. After getting several estimates and getting jerked around for over 4 weeks we finally found Ed's Plumbing. In a house with no basement, John and his team (Matt, Louis and Jack) got the job done in perfect order. With the new high efficiency models, we had to do new venting and tear into the walls (they kept the removal of drywall to a minimal--thankfully!). They were extremely professional. They brought in drop clothes and covered everything. Any mess that was made, and it was minimal, they cleaned up. They offered suggestions on the upkeep of the new unit and John went over how to do yearly maintenance. They may not be the cheapest plumber out there but they are defintely well worth the price. You pay for what you get.

kent e.
kent e.
9/19/2016
Ed's team is awesome! I have worked with Ed for some time now,  Ed LeTourneau has been in business for over 40 years and has thousands of very happy satisfied customers -----you don't stay in business that long and do bad work, his employees are top notch and his equipment is first class, I would highly recommended Ed's Plumbing for any plumbing needs you won't be disappointed.  Unfortunately only a few of the thousands of customers take the time to leave reviews and only when they have a complaint, my experiences with Ed's Plumbing have been excellent---- he is honest and stands behind his work!

Patti T.
Patti T.
1/23/2017
I am so happy I dodged this company. They did come out. They are very unprofessional. They wanted $457 to hang a dining room light that already had power in place. They wanted $500 per canned light to install. Again the power was already in place. Just install the lights. Jon came out. What a punk. Ed called back Monday. What a liar. I did get the number from my parish bulletin and have already called the church office to inform them of Ed the scam plumber. Shame on him and his creepy crew.

Kaci A.
Kaci A.
04/10/2012 12:00:00 SA
Do not call these people - I was desperate and called them from our church bulletin - I paid over twice what 2 other plumbers quoted me the next day for his emergency service with his parish discount!!!

Janice M.
Janice M.
12/23/2013
I feel conned!  I learned of this company from an ad in our Church bulletin and trusted them when the company did nothing except make an $85.00 house call, looked at our toilet and said, I'm not sure what is wrong.  I have to take the toilet off.  He said it would cost me, $520 for a 45-50 min. job.  This did not include parts and the quote d included their 5% discount for being a church member and 5% for being a senior citizen. I refused to give him the go ahead and had to pay the $80 to get him to leave.  I don't want to give them even one star.  I called the church bulletin to warn them.  DON'T use this ad.  The 5* post of 11/01/2012 is, no doubt, part of their con.

Susan D.
Susan D.
02/08/2019 12:00:00 SA
My elderly mother with Parkinson's found this ad in her church bulletin and thought she could trust them. She needed a disposal that she had bought installed.  The plumber took all of 45 minutes and charged my mom $585.  After reading these similar reviews, we are hoping they close up shop.

Donne V.
Donne V.
04/10/2015 12:00:00 SA
Do not give ED the Plumber your business!!!!!

We had a hot water heater blow and needed it replaced ASAP.  My wife found Ed in the parish bulletin.   Same day service.  She called and a technician was out promptly and quoted us $1500 to replace.  No complaints with the tech.

While the tech was out getting parts, my wife called her brother and brother in law to check pricing.  Her brother stated he paid $800 for his hot water heater replacement and that $1500 seemed high.

When the tech returned she simply asked why the cost was so high when the heater itself was only $400 dollars.  He was very nice and stated that she should talk to the owner, Ed.  She called Ed and asked why it cost so much compared to what her brother paid.  

Ed told my wife, 'you can have your brother come out and install it.'  He was condescending and explained his pricing is taken from a book and 'his cost is his cost.  He had already told his tech to pack up and leave.  My wife assured Ed that she was just asking for a cost breakdown, and that she wasn't arguing.   With that he ended their call and the tech left.  No repair.  Still without hot water.  Now we have to call and wait for someone else.

Our first call will be to get someone in here to fix our hot water heater.
Our next call will be to our church to advise them of the people they let advertise in their bulletin.
The yelp review (and other places that take reviews) is the next step.  I see others already agree.

Bob P.
Bob P.
4/27/2016
Just a quick follow up to my critique (complaint) of Ed's Plumbing.
A TRUE local firm (Camfield Plumbing) came in and did the repair using my $21 replacement part in an hour for $125.  The job was professionally done on both the inside and out.

Luc P.
Luc P.
7/28/2014
They wanted to charge me $456 to unclog a bathtub and sink.  The guy warned me they might brake a pipe and they would not be responsible.  This made me uneasy so I went online while the guy was still there and read the reviews.  Sure enough it looks like they are a bad news.  I had to give the guy $85 to leave.  So please do not even call them.  There are 9 other reviews hidden with a one star rating that you can't easily see.

Mary A M.
Mary A M.
06/09/2015 12:00:00 SA
I gave this company one star but if there was a rate of below Zero, a negative number that  is what I would have given them.  Why......because they do not give you a fair price for services.  To Electric Rod my sink it was to cost me 440 dollars......I found his number in the parish bulletin and expected a company that was Fair.   The company is not fair ......They are out to take the costumer...you sign a paper for the 85 dollar service call...10 to 15 minute assessment before they drop the bomb.....440 dollars

This company reminds me of companies you hear reported on TV news that don't give you all the facts...think you are desperate and use that to their advantage in charging exorbitant service charges...like 440 dollars for approximately one hour of work.

If you have had the same experience as I ...tell ten people...they tell ten more people and another ten maybe ...just maybe this company will learn their lesson ......

Be fair to your customer....State up front what the cost of your services will be.....Then the customer can make an informed decision on using your services or not.

Krystle C.
Krystle C.
7/23/2016
Do not used them, they take advantage of the elderly. Job took under an hour to replace pipes under the sink. Materials cost $75, and they charged almost $800. Took a 10% discount so around $700.  That is over $600 in labor cost. Unbelievable! Keep our elderly safe and make them loose, not our elderly. Find another plumber. I wish I could give this 0 stars because they deserve to be out of business.

Tim B.
Tim B.
3/30/2016
Don't use this plumber. He is dishonest and takes advantage of the elderly. He over-charges and does not break down his costs by  labor and material. My mother used him and I tried to contact him to see if he would explain his charges. Unfortunately my mother already had the work done and I doubt I will see any resolution.  He advertised on the back of church bulletin. DONT USE THIS GUY!

Christine Copin C.
Christine Copin C.
05/02/2015 12:00:00 SA
They charge 2x the cost and take advantage of seniors and Christians. They advertise in the church bulletin. I don't know how they sleep at night.

Karen R.
Karen R.
02/03/2017 12:00:00 SA
Took advantage of my elderly parents. Sewer needed to be rodded out and charged them almost 15,000 dollars. They said they needed to send a camera all the way underground to the street so it would not back up in 30 years. My parents were in their late 70's and fell for it. I tried to stop the transaction. They advertise in church bulletins with senior discount.

Leslie B.
Leslie B.
10/08/2015 12:00:00 SA
A completely disappointing experience.  I saw this name in my church bulletin and wrongly assumed that the ad was placed by a parishioner who was doing this work himself.  When I phoned for an appointment, I was told there was an $85 charge for coming out to look at the work but if the plumber did the work, that $85 would go toward the cost.  This was OK with me.  When the plumber came--a guy named Jeff, not Ed--he immediately had me sign for the $85 charge.  My plumbing need was small--a running toilet--and his assessment was that the complete innards of the toilet needed to be replaced for $300+!!  As an alternative, he could fix the flapper only for $200+!!  What they failed to tell me when I phoned for the appointment is that they charge flat rates for work from the book.  Had I known this I would have asked for the flat rate to fix the flapper before I set the appointment.  

On top of this mess I got myself into, the repair failed within 6 hours of the work being done.  They do guarantee their work for 90 days so another plumber--Jonathan--came the next day and fixed the problem.  But this was a horrible experience.  Do not go down this same path as I unless you don't care about frayed nerves or what things cost.

anon a.
anon a.
9/16/2016
I'm so sorry I didn't read reviews before I had a kitchen sink leak repaired today.  I was told they had to replace pipes, etc.  It was pretty much the same story you find in other reviews here.  I found the business in the back of a church bulletin, and thought it was a local business.  Long story short, $745 (with a 10 percent discount) for a job that took about 1 hour and 20 minutes.  Everything posted about this business scamming the elderly, and others, is accurate.  I wish I could give it a 0 review.

Also,  the piping that was replaced was only one year old.  Others here have commented about how they insist on replacing piping (to jack up the price.)  The bottom line is that the leak under the sink should have been fixed in about 15 minutes, at a fraction of the price.  How do you justify $400 per hour for labor?  The chrome pipe used to replace my pipe wasn't even new . . . just some stuff Jonathan had in the truck!

Scott S.
Scott S.
5/16/2018
I'd give zero stars if I could. Total scam I should have checked reveiws. My dad found them in church bulletin, their handyman estimates for quick jobs were over triple others. Lost $125 deposit for the estimate. Not sure how they're in business

Andrew P.
Andrew P.
2/20/2016
No stars $268 to replace a stop valve that is five dollars to buy giant scam!! All they do is say that they're licensed and that's why everything is so expensive these people are the worst

Mag L.
Mag L.
7/29/2015
I feel the same way as other complaints.  First I took his name out of the church bulletin also, I agree with others he must know people fall for if they are in the church bulletin they must be okay BOLOGNA.  I will print all these complaints and ask our Pastor not to let him advertise in our bulletin. I needed to have my cartridge changed in my Moen shower faucet.  The plumber comes in and begins with all the large jargon.  We need to rebuild this  at the cost of 475.00.  I told him pack his tools and get out of my house the entire faucet only cost 150.00.  I called Ed immediately, this faucet is only 3-4 years old.  Ed says well if the other guys were so good why is bad already.  Here you go Mr. Plumber of 50 years because the cartridge does not last FOREVER.  So glad I did not give him 1 more penny than the 85.00 trip charge.  CONSUMER BEWARE OF TRIP CHARGES they are a way to suck you in, if I already spent 85 .....  There are way to many plumbers that will provide free estimates Shame on me.  The plumber at my house says he subscribes to a company that sets rates.  Well I called out Simon Plumbing in OF and got the job done for 155.00 and 45 minutes later the shower was function just fine,  and I still saved 235. from the estimate from Ed's plumber.  I don't who in the heck he thinks he is that he should be charging anyone 475.00 an hour.  He claims to be in business for 50 years well he should not be in business for another 50 minutes.

Michael O.
Michael O.
03/06/2018 12:00:00 SA
Horrible Do Not Use.  Dishonest criminals.  Ed charged me $800 to get my sewer line cleared and promised to get to the bottom of the issue no matter what and fix it right.  I was mislead to think that the $800 inluded more than just sending the rodder down the pipe, and that he was going to do more.  Other places charge $99, and will send a camera down for free.  He wanted to do $300 follow up treatments for 3 months to make sure the tree roots didn't come back, plus charge me for sending a camera down.  I found the same product online for $15 a treatment.  The problem presited and he would not return to check his work.  Then put the blame on me that I did not do the treatments.  Then he told me he knew exatcly what the problem was and where it was located in the pipe and said it would cost a lot of money to fix it and he will have to tear up the pipe.  We went from this will fix the problem to less than a week later there is a bigger problem and he knows exactly what is wrong.  At that point I realized he was overcharging and wanted to keep milking me for more money.  He knew what was wrong.  Very dishonest person and company.  I do not know how this company is still in business.

Paul A.
Paul A.
6/13/2018
So I need to correct my review. After putting me off for a month I finally got a refund for my deposit. The only thing is they subtracted the $125 trip fee which I paid last year. So I paid the trip fee twice. So I got back $675 of my $800 deposit. I will settle for that and consider myself lucky. I have learned a lesson.

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